Introduction to YACS 7.10, on October 11th

An interactive chat session that has taken place on Thursday Oct-11th

During the conversation key new features have been introduced, plus the correction of salient bugs, and a couple of questions have been answered.

NickR: testing...
Now this is cool, but why not IRC ?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
19 on Oct. 10 2007
Bernard: Why? Because this is integrated natively into the web site, because you can share files around, and because you can make a permanent transcript out of it with one click. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: It is very neat the way you integrate into the comments, did you write the interface ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: yeap, everything is home-made here... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: So who are we exspecting ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Don't know, but I will start to show you a couple of things. It is quite usual for such rendez-vous to have late arrivals. People will re-synchronize the thread anyway. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: First of all, you may want to have a global picture of where we are today. The following file may help.
20070926-what-is-yacs.pdf on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Thanks - reading it now. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: I will let you read the entire document, yet the most important point with YACS version 7.10 is the introduction of AJAX, with the prototype and script.aculo.us Javascript libraries. YACS has its own Javascript library as well, in file shared/yacs.js, and this one is expected to grow dramatically over time. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: What is in yacs.js, ajax ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Yes, but this file also results from a consolidation and rewriting of various Javascript that exist previously.
The conversation we have now is a direct application of the interactivity allowed by AJAX. We are staying at this page for a long time, but content is changing dynamically, and all people looking at the page get the same view synchronously, and can contribute as well.
Interactive conversations are just leveraging existing components of YACS, mainly comments and files. And of course, you can use YACS codes, or post links directly in contributions. For example:
http:www.ngr78.co.uk/
This is quite useful to drive people during a training or so. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: IMHO have to be careful to try and maintain as much accessibility as possible. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Yes, that's a challenge, and I am not sure we are at the right level for this now.
Actually the focus has been on performance and response times for a while, because AJAX interactions can turn any powerful box to a sluggish server. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Disappoints me how many websites leverage Ajax and forget about accessibility. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Now that we have a workable solution, we can also have a look at usability, etc.
If you want to advise on accessibility, please do not hesitate to do so on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Hmmm. Turn javascript and stylesheets off on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: For style sheets it's ok. But without javascript you have no AJAX anymore... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Well without ajax/javascript have to consider HOW it would be possible to maintain the main functionality. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: How would you do that? on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Maybe the approach should be to write functionality without ajax and then add ajax to enhance it.Progressive Enhancement on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: Hello ! just joining. Sorry to be late. Have read the thread. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Nick, I was thinking like this last year. But what you are talking about is not possible anymore, and AJAX gurus now start with AJAX and attempt to degrade gracefully. The next step is, probably, to have Javascript as a pre-requisite to access a site.
Hello Alain, and welcome aboard. Canada, UK, France are well represented today on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: Is it out-of-order to ask what is script.aculo.us ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: At least, with YACS, when you have finished your chat you can click on the Lock link to turn it to a permanent transcript, and have an accessible page again. A sample in French
Alain, look at http:script.aculo.us/ to get a good idea of the thing. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Maybe a consideration would be to take the google approach, have a basic interface for non-javascript users ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Yes, we have to think about that, definitely.
Another important feature of YACS 7.10 is the native support of UTF-8 databases. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Also categorise functionality that is essential and optional ?
Then decide is javascript essential or optional
Maybe as a configuration setting... on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: I agree with you Nick, yet I would like also to introduce other important new features... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Please do on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: As you know, the software has accepted UTF-8 input for a while, but this was translated to Unicode entities before saving records in the database. Now, YACS checks MySQL parameters, and saves native UTF-8 records where applicable. The improvement is mainly in search requests, since YACS now allows for accented characters in full-text searches...
This full implementation of the UTF-8 standard will help non-English speakers, definitely...
YACS version 7.10 leverages Google Maps and AJAX for interactive geo-encoding. This complements what Nick was talking about previously. When creating a new location object, you have to type explicitly the latitude and longitude. But when Javascript is enabled, you can type a plain address and let Google do the hard job. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: MacNana will love this on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Hopefully! I have bought an iMac at home, and would like to benefit from her strong experience of these beautiful machines. A win-win situation for her and me... on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: As for UTF-8, what does it imply for existing yacs installations ?
also..."... when Javascript is enabled..." Not having so much exposure as you guys on how others use their computers, I was wondering when and why Javascript would not be "enabled" ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: YACS supports the co-existence of Unicode and UTF-8 pages in the same database, so that is not a big deal. Unicode pages are still accessible as usual, and only new or modified pages are turned to UTF-8. This site is now working this way, for example. on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: second question ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: For javascript, all computers I know have it enabled, but Nick may have a different experience... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Lasares, in the UK it is a LEGAL requirement to make ANY service accessible.
Anything from a shop to a website. on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: I guess I don't get the full extent of this conversation on accessibility... on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Nick, thank you to outline this constraint, that we don't have in France, yet. Anyway it makes a lot of sense to me to ensure that as many people as possible can access a site, whatever the means they are using, or not. Have you some tests to assess how accessible a site is? on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Though, as to what is considered an accessible website, I do not know
bobby is a tool we use at work.
http:webxact.watchfire.com/
http:www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/web-accessibility/uk-website-legal-requirements.shtml on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: I will definitely look at this carefully, many thanks for the reference pointers. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: I dont know though if 100% of a website has to be accessible, or 50%... on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Another important change in 7.10 is the comprehensive testing of permissions management and cascading. Are you ready for a live test? on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: /me put his helmet on. on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: sure on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: The first thing to do is to open a second browser window, to preserve your current session at this thread. If you have Firefox, open Internet Explorer, etc. on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: done
I am in IE7 now, have opened FF2 on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Ok, in the second window, go to the section 279. on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: There I am. Didn't know it existed. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: From there, visit the section entitled 'restricted access'. Then authenticate successively as member / member and subscriber / subscriber and browse around... I am waiting for your feed-back here in two minutes... on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: OK on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: ok on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: on Oct. 11 2007
Member: Fatal error: Undefined class name 'comments' in /home.10.9/yetanoth/www/yacs/sections/layout_sections_as_select.php on line 147
I tried to create a new page as 'member' :| on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: There doesn't semm to be much in the English Sandbox. But I get something in the "Bac à sable". on Oct. 11 2007
Member: in restricted access on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Nick, can you authenticate back to Nick please? on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: back to nickr on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Ok, that's better, you deserve a better nick name than member, you know... on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: And thank you for the bug discovery... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: user ? on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: If I get it right, members can't see what subscribers can see and vice-versa ? on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: I never noticed... on Oct. 11 2007
Member: Accès restreint (new) Démonstration des limitations d'accès aux membres et aux souscripteurs. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Yes, that's the point. A brand new hierachical system has been implemented in YACS 7.10 to ensure proper access control. on Oct. 11 2007
Subscriber: Section réservée à un souscripteur on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Now I see. That is nice, is the code complex ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: For example, to create a site to distribute information to selected people, you can setup a private section, and configure users as subscribers, to control who has read access to your content.
You can do that with regular members to configure private collaborative places (once the bug uncovered by nick will be fixed, of course...) on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: Will you have to individually authorize members and subscribers or will the authorisation apply to the whole class of members/subscribers ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: The code is not that complex, but the optimization is crucial because of the cascade of permissions.
Alain: the assignment is individual. For the test you have used specific accounts on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: I see. When visiting the sandbox, I (Lasares) is not allowed to see the content permitted to either members nor subscribers.
Will it be possible to give permission to a whole group. ? on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Me 2 "You are not allowed to perform this operation." on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: On this side also YACS has been improved, and a small AJAX auto-completion box has replaced the selection list that was used to assign users to pages or sections. The selection list was great with a reduced number of users. But with all these growing communities it has become a nightmare, and the AJAX auto-completion control is superior.
Alain: there is no group yet in YACS. on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: I always found the permission system quite confusing and I have read in forums that I am not alone. Sometimes, even those trying to explain made things more confusing. I guess we will be due for a clean post in the doc, after this implementation.
But, this said, I should stress that this is a great improvement. Much appreciated. Thanks, Bernard ! on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Before the YACS 7.10 security was very confusing because, without cascading, you have to protect every resource individually. The new hierarchical approach will make the thing simpler, I guess. on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: Got it. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Groups should not be too hard to implement...
How about being able to categorise users ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: I am seeing groups as an alias for a list of users. This would be very useful to send messages at once, or to assign people to a section at once as well.
We are not too far away from this with the brand new tagging of user profiles. on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: I am sometimes impleting mini-intranets for working groups. It would be nice to be able to use groups, for example : marketing people, ops people, managers, etc...
Tagging of user profiles ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Yes, I know, and this where tags are good in. Give it a try, and visit your own profile. Edit it and add a couple of tags, separated by commas. If you type one or wo characters, you will benefit from the auto-completion control, once again. Then go back here in one minute or two.
on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: OK Ive added 3 random tags... Rhodes, Nick on Oct. 11 2007
Netscype: Greets from belgium on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Hello Netscype... on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: Added tags, now what ? on Oct. 11 2007
Netscype: When wil the new yacs come out on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Shortly, as soon as NickR will slow the pace on new bugs.. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: on Oct. 11 2007
Netscype: just started but sill learning
still on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: OK, I see now how I could use tags with user profiles. Not as good as groups, but yet better than going through the list of members repeated times. You do it once to tag members appropriately. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: You have used random tags, but, on my own profile, I have re-used a pre-existing tag which is quite common: 'blog'. The magic is that the related category lists jointly all tagged elements, user profiles and pages along. Give it a try, at Blogging with yacs
In corporate environment, or for topics-based communities, this can help a lot to expose the network of relationships between people, and also between people and content. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Yes
Would categories be useful ? - Im thinking of an organisational structure developer on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Also, tags can be setup initially by self-registering users, and changed or completed afterwards by other people. Lastly, tags do not limit you in the number of dimensions you are describing: job position, technical topic, customer names, etc.
Tags and categories are closely related in YACS, since the software creates categories dynamically on any new tags. But you can also create categories upfront, manually, and these will be softly suggested to end-users through auto-completion. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: I am wondering if we can trust users to tag themselves ? on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: I would give users at least the "benefit of the doubt" to tag themselves but I may worry that they will delete a tag which I, as an administrator, would find essential. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Yes and no. Yes, if you provide some assistance, and this is what AJAX auto-completion is about. No, if you appreciate that users may, in some situations, not know enough suitable tags. In my opinion, you have to let people go, and review profiles in the background.
Alain, most users are really conservative, and proud of what they have, so the case you are referencing should be quite rare. on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: Thierry had much concerns about categories since he seemed to have encountered quite a few difficulties with them. I get that he is a heavy user of categories. Are the bugs he pointed at, all solved ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Thierry is our expert is Search Engine Optimization (SEO), as you know, and his concern is more on the way YACS build links to categories, I believe. Thanks to his input YACS has improved a lot on articles and sections, and Thierry would like this to be extended to categories as well. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Maybe a tag gets locked if it gets assigned to a section or a page (or any content) ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: I mean, http:server/category-123-a-nice-title is better than the http:server/category-123 we have today.
So, categories are probably the next area for SEO improvements... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Thierry likes his nice titles - I find my site does really well on google even without nice titles on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: Under some conditions, though, categories would be arbitrarily repeated and demonstrate some other odd behavior. I remember having a problem with week/month categories. But maybe these are old stories long solved... ? on Oct. 11 2007
ThierryP: Hello ! on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: Talking of the devil !!! on Oct. 11 2007
ThierryP: on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Hello Thierry. We were missing you... on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: Hello Thierry on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Alain, the problems you mention have been solved, to my knowledge. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Hello Mr Nice Titles on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: Thanks, Bernard. I will have to go momentarily. I will join you again tomorrow, in French. Thierry, will you be there, too ? on Oct. 11 2007
ThierryP: Helle Bernard, Lasares and NickR, I try to translate your words !
yes, i be there now on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: A last nice feature of YACS, for Alain, is the dynamic generation of Freemind maps out of section content. A live example of this can be found in Documentation on Oct. 11 2007
ThierryP: I thinck, Freemind have one big problem : A final click area
is so little ! on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: I know that Thierry has not been so happy with these dynamic maps, but the interface has been improved in YACS 7.10, and it has proven quite handy to present a lot of content through a visual tree-like control. on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: Yeah, I like Freemind maps but I agree with Thierry. They should at least open in a new window, so that if a user closes the window, he/she doesn't leave the site. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Thierry, we can discuss the point in French tomorrow night if you like? I would like to get your feed-back on this.
Alain, same for U on Oct. 11 2007
ThierryP: i prefere, beaucause my english is... what you say ? "Vache espagnol" ? on Oct. 11 2007
Lasares: OK, I have to leave, now. Good bye Nickr (BTW, nice pictures on your site). Good bye Bernard and Thierry, meet you tomorrow... on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Bye Alain, see you tomorrow.
This, essentially, is what I wanted to share with you tonight. Maybe you have some questions on this new version? on Oct. 11 2007
ThierryP: bye canadian cousin on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Are you tired or what?
No question, and it's only 11pm? on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: 10pm in UK
Bye Lasares on Oct. 11 2007
ThierryP: telle me about category ! Link optimization are ready for Yacs 7.10 ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Link optimization,meaning the addition of titles to category links, is not part of yacs 7.10alpha8. But I have started to chase that in the code, and this is an on-going work...
Nick, do you have new web projects these days? Maybe you have prepared a nice photo album for the baby? on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: I have a new job
I am developing www.healthspace.nhs.uk on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: You mean, you have a healthy baby? on Oct. 11 2007
ThierryP: NickR : "Thierry likes his nice titles - I find my site does really well on google even without nice titles " The addition of nice title is not a optimization obligation , but it is one more which counts.

In the same way as the choice of the anchor of the link! Google use it for create this index. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: I really should make a skin for my website.
That will do for my baby photos on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: The accessibility page at your site reminds me that YACS do support some access keys, as demonstrated in page source. Also, a nice tip specially for you: at any form, hit [s] to submit data to the software. This also works here, in threads. Alt-Shift-S for Firefox... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: You know I suggested some time ago about making about/privacy pages as editable articles, I have a further idea... on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: That has been done for the 7.10 version, look at links at the bottom of this page. I forgot to mention this previously, sorry.
YACS now features a section for global pages, which are special named articles. At the moment we have: 'about', 'privacy', 'cover' and 'menu'. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: That is to make more items editable, for example the code that generates the headings or the Stay tuned section, to make the output as customisable as possible. on Oct. 11 2007
ThierryP: excellent idea, maybe add query contact on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: So we could do cool things like insert google adverts in the headings, or add a feedburner link next to the netvides link on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Nick, the thing you are talking about exists. YACS has a number of hooks to include external code at key processing steps. Maybe this could be extended to new processing steps, but the idea has been implemented for a while.
Another feature of interest is the model pages. The idea is to create sample named pages in a dedicated hidden section. Then, from any section, you can reference one or several model pages, and this will be used for new articles. For example, to create a section dedicated to invoices, you would create a model invoice, and reference this model page in the invoicing section. Then, each time a new page will be added to this section, the invoice model will be duplicated to create a new invoice. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: I forgot about the hooks on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: I am not sure to be clear here, but this is really simple to use, I can tell you... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Ah like a template on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: exactly - good to have English-speaking people around... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Thats what I was thinking ALL html output should be like, in templates (like the skins), rather than hooks. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Nick, have you some experience of such templating system?
Hello LeToto... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Bernard, no experience, just an idea. I was thinking: skin/article/headertemplate.php, skink/comment/commenttemplate.php on Oct. 11 2007
LeToto: Hi! Excuse me, I don't want to disturb you. Is it possible to have a backup of this discussion? Thanks. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: LetToto, I believe it will saved. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: No problem, at the end of the discussion this will be turned to a permanent transcript for further reference... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: http:www.yetanothercommunitysystem.com/yacs/comments/list.php/article/3346
somehow I managed to get that by edditing a comment, notice it say 146 comments, but no paging on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Nick, there is a more natural way to turn this page to a transcript. You will see that in minutes, when we will stop the discussion.

Also, the link you are talking about to external scripts is exactly the purpose of YACS hooks. Except hooks let you the names and locations of invoked scripts. We definitely have to setup a future chat on this topic. on Oct. 11 2007
ThierryP: i so tired, i go back. See you later bernard, bye NickR
Bye leToto to ! on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: cya Thierry. on Oct. 11 2007
LeToto: Thanks. It'll be interesting for me. I wasn't there at the beginning. French is my preferred language, and i would like to use what you said today in the tomorrow french's discussion. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Bye Thierry. on Oct. 11 2007
ThierryP: see you tomorrow letoto ! Bye All !!! on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: I will have to break the chat as well, because of all these bugs to fix before going to bed... on Oct. 11 2007
LeToto: Have a nice night, ThierryP! on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: It was very nice to have this chat together, and we will manage to have such micro-events on a very regular basis. on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: This chat has been useful on Oct. 11 2007
LeToto: That's a good idea, B.
In fact, it would be interresting in the future to have a chat like this in the "Besoin d'aide"'s section of the Forum. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Ok, so good bye to everybody. In one minute I will lock this page to turn it to a transcript, and you will just have to reload the link in the browser to have it on screen. 60, 59, 58, ... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: BTW, this chat feature works really well.
And the way it ties in with comments - elegante ! on Oct. 11 2007
LeToto: Thus, when a problem is related, if there is a member online, he will have the possibility to give immediately his idea/solution. on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Thanks Nick. 45, 44, 43, ... on Oct. 11 2007
LeToto: Bye everyone! on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: That's right LeToto, yet you need some on-line presence. 39, 38, 37, ... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: www.room42hairsalon.co.uk/yacs - nearly finished my skin on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: With YACS 7.10 the loading will be faster. 25, 24, 23, ...
But the skin is great. 18, 17, 16, ... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: Btw, can I set a default zoom level on google map ? on Oct. 11 2007
Bernard: Nope. 4, 3, 2, ... on Oct. 11 2007
NickR: 1 on Oct. 11 2007

Rate this page
Posted by Bernard on Oct. 9 2007, page edited by Bernard on Oct. 11 2007, (popular)